Use Your Voice - PART TWO

[00:00:00] Previously on Scotland's Women

[00:00:02] Yep, 2024 and it's not Texas, it's Glasgow as you say, but yeah I've been following what's been happening with the Buffer Zone Bill.

[00:00:09] It's something that's taken a long time but new legislation does take time and they have had to start from scratch to make new legislation, it's not been an amendment.

[00:00:16] So at the moment the Scottish Parliament have listened to evidence from both sides of the debate including, you know, celibate bishops because apparently what they think is very important

[00:00:25] it probably could be sort of end of this year, maybe early next year by the time that passes.

[00:00:30] It can make me more determined. I've got people that stalk me, you know, I block them and they still stalk me from anonymous accounts.

[00:00:36] I just think it's probably someone that would be, that wouldn't say boo to me on the street.

[00:00:40] If you're too frightened to even let me know what your name is, you're not that brave.

[00:00:43] Scotland's Women, our lives, our stories. Now let's get on with the show.

[00:01:04] Hey Gemma, how's it going?

[00:01:06] Good, how are you?

[00:01:07] Good, thank you so much for coming back on Scotland's Women Podcast.

[00:01:11] I greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:01:14] It's been quite a while since the last time we spoke.

[00:01:18] Could you give us a little update on what's happened?

[00:01:21] A lot has changed because we recorded it way back, I can't remember, was it July we recorded it?

[00:01:27] Yeah, it was a couple of years.

[00:01:29] Yeah, and a lot has changed since then.

[00:01:31] Could you just give us an update on what's been happening with the buffer zones now?

[00:01:35] Well, since we spoke about that, the law had become an act.

[00:01:39] And it's now the date when police could enforce the act was last week.

[00:01:44] So the law is now in place, the police can enforce it and they did then move some protesters who had appeared at the hospital after the act being put in place.

[00:01:52] So that's good that the law is there and it seems to be working.

[00:01:55] That's what everybody was looking for.

[00:01:57] And that was outside the Sandy Ford Clinic I saw on your page.

[00:02:03] The day before the law was enforceable, two men who've been there a few times that wear body cameras and microphones and they're quite aggressive and they've got really nasty signs about babies being murdered.

[00:02:14] They appeared the day before the act knowing that they couldn't get arrested.

[00:02:17] So they had one more session shouting at women outside the Sandy Ford Clinic.

[00:02:20] And then the next day on the Tuesday when the act came into place, two people appeared to do their peer vigil, whatever they want to call it, but the police attended and moved them on, which they weren't able to do with the men that were being much more aggressive the day before, unfortunately.

[00:02:34] What happened to just a peaceful protest to get your message across, but don't be aggressive?

[00:02:41] I know.

[00:02:42] I know.

[00:02:42] In a way, although it was horrible for people attending the clinic that day, I think it's good to remind people that is what this movement is about.

[00:02:49] It's about fear and intimidation.

[00:02:51] And they might have toned it down a little bit when they were trying to fight against the legislation, but it was a bit of a mascot moment for them and a bit of a reminder of what they're all about.

[00:03:00] So when the buffer zone came into place, was there any police or security around, you know, Sandy Ford or the local hospitals or anything around Scotland?

[00:03:12] Do you know that or is it just when they're called?

[00:03:15] Yeah, I think the police would just go when they're called.

[00:03:16] I don't think that they are normally.

[00:03:19] Yeah.

[00:03:19] Because it's not America, is it?

[00:03:21] It is.

[00:03:22] That's horrible though.

[00:03:24] I know.

[00:03:25] That's horrible knowing it's coming in place.

[00:03:27] So we're just going to intimidate women even more.

[00:03:30] Yeah, just one last chance.

[00:03:32] One last time while we can.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:33] It's just horrible.

[00:03:35] Have you heard any people's stories about having to deal with that the day before the buffer zone came in?

[00:03:44] Yeah, someone, I saw on Twitter that someone tweeted back off Scotland that she had an appointment at the Sandy Ford Clinic and that there was men outside with signs shouting.

[00:03:53] So, yeah, definitely impacts real people that were going for appointments that day.

[00:03:57] Pretty horrible for the staff, I would imagine.

[00:03:59] Being alone and going through a health issue.

[00:04:02] Yeah.

[00:04:03] It's your health, it's your body and you get that.

[00:04:06] That's just not wrong.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:09] And that in particular as well, it's not just medical procedures they do.

[00:04:12] They do counselling for survivors of rape and things like that.

[00:04:15] So you don't know what someone's been through and they're going to that clinic.

[00:04:18] Yeah.

[00:04:19] They do a wide number of services.

[00:04:22] It's an amazing place.

[00:04:22] I do love your content because it makes me more aware of what's going on, but it's shown me awareness and also educating me at the same time.

[00:04:31] And I thank you because we wouldn't know half this stuff.

[00:04:35] So obviously the news only gives you what they want to give you.

[00:04:39] You're telling the truth.

[00:04:40] You're actually saying this is what's actually happening.

[00:04:42] And I thank you for your platform, honestly.

[00:04:45] I think it's a hard line because it doesn't do us any good to be angry about things all the time.

[00:04:51] But quite often I'm just sharing things that the anti-abortion organisations have put out publicly themselves just to let people see what they're really saying.

[00:04:58] They're the worst advert for themselves.

[00:05:00] I think if more people saw what they're all about and what they do.

[00:05:03] Yes.

[00:05:04] Yeah.

[00:05:04] People would be less tolerant of them.

[00:05:07] Like filming them 24-7 and going, this is the truth.

[00:05:10] This is what they're actually like.

[00:05:12] Yeah.

[00:05:12] And the aggressiveness though, doing that to a woman.

[00:05:17] You know, so let's say you're doing that and turn around and go, okay, I won't go in and get any procedures or anything because you know best because you've got a sign and you're a man.

[00:05:27] Do you know what I mean?

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:30] Exactly.

[00:05:30] And what's meant to happen after that?

[00:05:32] You know what I mean?

[00:05:32] They're supposed to be providing help.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:35] And if you look into the help that's on offer, it's quite often they're trying to direct you to like abortion pill reversal.

[00:05:42] The clinical trial that was done on that had to be abandoned because so many women hemorrhaged and had to go to hospital.

[00:05:47] And as far as I know, it's not effective anyway.

[00:05:49] Like if you do change your mind, which I don't think happens often, but if you do change your mind after taking the first pill, the NHS says you've got just as much of a chance if you just don't take the second set of pills.

[00:06:01] Because rather than playing Russian roulette and taking this high dose of progesterone that we know has caused problems.

[00:06:07] Or the help could include getting you to churches and might give you nappies for a while.

[00:06:13] That's only helpful for so long.

[00:06:16] And obviously, churches and everything are doing food banks and they're helping loads of people.

[00:06:23] Why would they, you know, just...

[00:06:26] It's just...

[00:06:28] It's a cult.

[00:06:29] And it's like women are such an abstract concept to so many of them.

[00:06:34] Because the groups that are, that organise the clinical tests in Scotland just released a new book and it's literally called What To Say When To.

[00:06:41] So it's telling you what to say when people bring up certain points about abortion.

[00:06:46] So they're meant to just memorise these talking points.

[00:06:48] And there was really silly things like, oh, if someone says you don't care about children once they're born, you don't even need to answer that.

[00:06:54] Just ignore that.

[00:06:55] You could just say something like, well, environmental activists don't care about the weather in Jupiter.

[00:06:59] Like we're talking about real people and real children and their lives.

[00:07:03] And that's how abstract and nonsensical and silly they are about it.

[00:07:07] You know, and publishing books where, oh, here's just some smart comebacks for you to win the argument against a human being who's trying to go for healthcare.

[00:07:17] From the last episode.

[00:07:18] Could you take us back on what we were talking about and what was happening, especially in Holyrood, the discussions and the fight against it?

[00:07:27] And nobody was going to say yes to these buffer zones.

[00:07:30] It had to go through a lot of process before it got to the present day, before it was...

[00:07:35] Yeah, it was a really long process.

[00:07:37] I remember when the campaign first started, the women minister at the time didn't...

[00:07:43] She did support it laterally, but she wasn't very supportive in the beginning.

[00:07:46] There was a lot of talk about localized buffer zones, which some areas of England has.

[00:07:50] They're called public space protection orders.

[00:07:53] And they're okay, but they're not brilliant because the accounts, the local authority need to keep on reapplying for them.

[00:07:58] So there's a really long drawn out process to even get a local buffer zone.

[00:08:01] And then you've only got it for a few years and you need to start going through again.

[00:08:05] And so that took quite a long time.

[00:08:07] And then I think legislation, new legislation, I think just takes time anyway.

[00:08:12] So there's the Green MSP, Gillian Mackay, who took it on as a private members bill.

[00:08:16] So it was brand new legislation.

[00:08:17] There had to be a lot of public consultation and a lot of advice taken on it.

[00:08:21] The public consultation had to be processed.

[00:08:24] Lots of groups had to be listened to.

[00:08:25] And I think if there'd been some kind of law that could have been amended, that might have been quicker.

[00:08:31] One MSP told me that she thought probably a law could be amended

[00:08:34] and she thinks there might have been some political reason, you know, with the SNP coalition,

[00:08:39] why they wouldn't do that and why it had to be down to a Green MSP to do the private members bill.

[00:08:43] So I don't really know for sure if they're not a politician, what the quickest solution would have been.

[00:08:48] Do you know what the law would have been to change?

[00:08:52] Yeah, because some MSP said that if they took some kind of existing criminal legislation and amended it,

[00:08:57] that might have been quicker.

[00:08:59] Right.

[00:09:00] But either way, new legislation does take a long time.

[00:09:02] And I think at the end of the day, it is good because it's national legislation.

[00:09:06] It's very thorough.

[00:09:07] And it's a 200 metre buffer zone which is actually bigger.

[00:09:11] And I think that was worthwhile because they've looked at the Scottish context

[00:09:14] and they've looked at really big hospitals like the Queen Elizabeth in Glasgow.

[00:09:18] And why actually, because of where certain entrances are,

[00:09:22] the protesters could get quite near if the buffer zone wasn't quite big.

[00:09:25] And I think they could get to the side or yeah.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] I think it was also really good that they looked at specific things like the men shouting outside the Sandiford Clinic.

[00:09:34] So the legislation also includes that if you're heard shouting within the 200 metres,

[00:09:39] you know, if you're using a megaphone just outside the buffer zone, you can't do that either.

[00:09:42] The police can move you, which I think is really positive because people will do that.

[00:09:47] They'll see how close they can get and how much disruption they can cause and how nasty they can be.

[00:09:51] So I think it's good that the legislation did really take the Scottish context into account.

[00:09:57] So although it's been a long process, I think ultimately it's probably been best in the long run.

[00:10:03] So it was the 25th of September, 2044, that these buffer zones came into place.

[00:10:08] How did that make you feel?

[00:10:10] Yeah, I was really happy about it.

[00:10:12] But obviously everyone that was supporting this campaign was happy about it.

[00:10:17] It's a really good thing.

[00:10:17] I think it's a really important step forward in tackling misogyny because that's just rice at the moment.

[00:10:23] But it's also sad that people can't be decent and that you need to have that legislation.

[00:10:27] The fact that people think that it's okay to behave in such a horrible way that it has been legislated,

[00:10:32] it's actually quite depressing.

[00:10:33] But we got there in the end.

[00:10:35] So very, very positive.

[00:10:36] I think it's been a big step forward for women in Scotland.

[00:10:39] We're protected and somebody's actually listening to us and just, it's a private thing.

[00:10:45] You know, it's not something anybody wants to broadcast.

[00:10:48] You know, it's a private thing.

[00:10:51] Your health.

[00:10:51] And it's got nothing to do with anybody else.

[00:10:54] So in a few weeks since these buffer zones have been put in place,

[00:10:59] what's, do you know what's been happening?

[00:11:01] How the protesters are reacting to these buffer zones at the moment?

[00:11:05] That's a good question.

[00:11:06] I am apart from the first day of the legislation,

[00:11:08] I haven't heard of anybody else protesting within a buffer zone.

[00:11:12] And some anti-abortion organizations have the reaction being quite bizarre.

[00:11:15] There was a group who went to protest outside the Scottish Parliament,

[00:11:18] which they've absolutely got the right to do.

[00:11:20] And they were wearing orange jumpsuits like you would in an American prison.

[00:11:23] And they put handcuffs on themselves and they taped up their mouths.

[00:11:27] And they were holding signs to say that they've been criminalized for helping women,

[00:11:31] which I find absolutely bizarre.

[00:11:32] But also the fact that they were able to do that at Parliament shows that their freedom of speech

[00:11:37] and right to protest has not been affected by buffer zones.

[00:11:39] If anything, it was good to see them finally protesting in an appropriate place.

[00:11:44] They're not right outside of a clinic.

[00:11:47] So although it was very, very strange and bizarre,

[00:11:49] and I think very obviously playing to an American audience with the orange jumpsuits

[00:11:53] and the, you know, the imagery that they've been using,

[00:11:56] it sort of proved the point that they're not being persecuted.

[00:11:59] They have their religious freedom. They have their freedom of speech.

[00:12:01] They have their freedom to protest.

[00:12:03] None of that had been affected.

[00:12:05] There was an MSP there as well, John Mason.

[00:12:06] And although it's always disappointing to see him supporting these things,

[00:12:11] in a way it's, you're kind of grateful that he has proven the point,

[00:12:13] that their freedom has not been affected by it at all.

[00:12:15] How does that make you feel personally?

[00:12:20] That didn't, it didn't really bother me.

[00:12:23] I thought it was just kind of sad and almost quite amusing, the tactics that they were using.

[00:12:28] And I feel like it was a bit of an own goal, because it did make the point,

[00:12:31] look, you are protesting, you're not being arrested.

[00:12:33] You put those handcuffs on yourself.

[00:12:35] You put the tape on your mouth yourself.

[00:12:38] Nobody's stopping you from doing that.

[00:12:39] You know, you're kind of self-persecuting now and that's up to you.

[00:12:41] If you want to do that, you can.

[00:12:45] It just shows you the kind of, the mental state of them.

[00:12:50] Yeah.

[00:12:50] The tactics that they're using.

[00:12:52] It doesn't make sense.

[00:12:53] They're just...

[00:12:55] It was almost as if, well, you're not going to persecute me.

[00:12:58] I guess I'm going to have to do it myself and put the handcuffs on myself.

[00:13:01] Yeah.

[00:13:01] And it's getting to the point where it's becoming entertainment.

[00:13:05] They're making entertainment out of women's personal health.

[00:13:10] You know, sorry, it gets me angry.

[00:13:12] I feel that, yeah, I think I would get arrested.

[00:13:17] I think I would take it too far and just...

[00:13:20] But there won't...

[00:13:21] I think what I like about you is you've got this calm nature because you know they're winning if they're getting that reaction from you.

[00:13:31] Is that right?

[00:13:33] Yeah.

[00:13:33] I did think it was an own goal and I think they just made a fool of themselves.

[00:13:37] So it didn't bother me.

[00:13:39] As much as I find these groups abhorrent, I don't want to take away their right to protest.

[00:13:43] They've got the right to do that.

[00:13:44] They've got the right to say what they want to say.

[00:13:45] But they shouldn't be targeting vulnerable people outside of clinics.

[00:13:49] Something I did find quite strange was that John Swinney yesterday met with that group who did the orange jumpsuit cosplay.

[00:13:55] And it looked as if they sort of ambushed him a bit for an interview.

[00:13:58] So he was visiting them, but I don't know if the interview was planned because it did seem a bit of an ambush.

[00:14:03] And the answers he gave them were absolutely fine.

[00:14:07] He was encouraging them to obey the law and not to be outside the clinics and just to go with that.

[00:14:11] But I did find it strange to meet a group who are quite extreme and spread quite a lot of disinformation about buffer zones.

[00:14:18] I think that was a very strange look for a First Minister.

[00:14:20] I don't know who advised him on that.

[00:14:23] Again, he's got the right to meet these groups and hear their views.

[00:14:25] But I did find it a strange look because it's not just a benign, harmless religious group.

[00:14:30] There's very specifically anti-buffer zones and they spread disinformation.

[00:14:34] I did find that quite a strange one.

[00:14:37] When did that happen?

[00:14:38] Yesterday it was on their social media.

[00:14:42] I don't see him going to visit these clinics and saying,

[00:14:48] how are you getting on? How are you feeling? And stuff like that.

[00:14:51] Being protective. But he's going to visit them.

[00:14:54] Yeah, I do find that strange.

[00:14:55] That is very, very strange.

[00:14:58] Yeah. And when he's picked a Deputy First Minister who's quite a fundamentalist,

[00:15:03] although she did vote in support of buffer zones,

[00:15:05] she wasn't the Deputy First Minister at that point and I think she had her eye on that position.

[00:15:09] Right.

[00:15:10] Lots of little things like that I just find a little bit concerning.

[00:15:14] Not all for people having their religious freedom,

[00:15:16] but my priority is freedom from religion and other people's rights to live freely

[00:15:20] and for LGBT people and women not to be persecuted.

[00:15:22] That's, yes, that's all I'm interested in.

[00:15:25] So I do keep an eye on these things and I do find it a bit concerning.

[00:15:31] Do you know the pattern of these protesters and groups?

[00:15:35] Do they go away for a bit and then come back and they've got a new tactic?

[00:15:39] Because you said before in the last episode, they're very clever because that's all they've got to do day in, day out.

[00:15:46] That's, they're there. That's their job.

[00:15:48] Could you tell us a bit about that?

[00:15:50] Yeah, something you said there just reminded me actually.

[00:15:53] So the men who were targeting the Sandiford Clinic and shouting,

[00:15:56] I suspect that other anti-abortion groups asked them to stay away while the buffer zone legislation was going through.

[00:16:02] Because they were very keen to give the impression that they're,

[00:16:06] that it's silent prayer and it's very peaceful.

[00:16:08] That's the impression that they were very keen to give.

[00:16:10] So I found it very strange that these men suddenly came back the day before the legislation could be enforced.

[00:16:15] And I do feel like it was almost as if they'd been asked to stay away.

[00:16:19] But their pattern is usually in Scotland,

[00:16:22] they target the Chalmers Clinic in Edinburgh for the 40 Days for Life fall campaign, as they call it.

[00:16:29] And then they do it during Lent in Glasgow in Easter.

[00:16:33] And outwith those times, it tends to be Tuesday mornings at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Wednesday mornings at the Royal Infirmary.

[00:16:40] These protests tend to take place throughout the year,

[00:16:42] but there'll be a really big presence during Lent in Glasgow and during the autumn in September in Edinburgh.

[00:16:50] Very organised, isn't it?

[00:16:51] It is very organised, yeah.

[00:16:53] And it's, people seem to think that Americans are coming over here to protest.

[00:16:57] Yes, they're not 40 Days for Life at a Texan organisation.

[00:16:59] But they're recruiting in Scotland and it's quite often churches in Scotland that are recruiting on their behalf.

[00:17:06] And Paisley Diocese are one of the biggest ones in that.

[00:17:08] And they'll take people by bus.

[00:17:10] They recruit on their social media.

[00:17:11] They put out on their church bulletins that they're encouraging people to spend an hour praying for the unborn during Lent.

[00:17:17] Which I think is actually a bit sort of spiritually manipulative.

[00:17:22] Yeah.

[00:17:22] But yeah, there's definitely some American influence, but also there is plenty of that movement here in Scotland, unfortunately.

[00:17:28] So do you think they'll just choose somewhere else?

[00:17:33] So they're going away. Do you think they're just going to revise their tactics?

[00:17:37] What you said in the last episode is they're never going to go away.

[00:17:42] I'm not sure exactly what their tactic will be, but I do suspect that there might be some people who try and get arrested deliberately,

[00:17:48] which is what they've done in England. So in England, although they don't have the national legislation yet,

[00:17:53] there are some clinics like in Bournemouth where they have the public face protection order.

[00:17:57] And there's people who work for organisations like March for Life or they work for 40 Days for Life.

[00:18:01] They're employed or they run these organisations and they've gone to these clinics and got arrested deliberately.

[00:18:08] And the reason I know that is because you can see it in their own footage.

[00:18:11] There was a woman who was there allegedly silently praying, obviously well known to the clinic.

[00:18:16] The police asked her if she was prepared to move and gave her chances to move and she refused.

[00:18:20] They said, well, we need to arrest you then. You know, so to me, that's a choice.

[00:18:24] And also, you were going to go and pray somewhere. Why would you have someone standing there filming you?

[00:18:28] You've obviously planned for that and you're hoping to get arrested because you've got an agenda.

[00:18:32] There was another man as well who got himself arrested outside the clinic and he said that he was there to pray for his dead son.

[00:18:40] And if you look him up on social media and he listens to 40 Days for Life's podcast,

[00:18:44] his ex from a long time ago had a very early abortion.

[00:18:47] And that's what he's referring to in calling a dead son.

[00:18:50] It's all quite manipulative and it's with sort of tabloids and Fox News and people like that in mind to try and create some propaganda

[00:18:57] because that's what happens next is they get sort of American outlets involved.

[00:19:01] And the narrative is that Christians are being persecuted and arrested for their private thoughts and private prayers in the UK.

[00:19:07] So that's the narrative that the very king put on it.

[00:19:10] So I suspect we might have some of that in Glasgow, that people will try and test the boundaries of the law and try and get arrested on purpose.

[00:19:17] And the question is just, who's it going to be?

[00:19:18] But something else that I think we might see actually, there's a group called Red Force who have been out in Buchanan Street in various cities in the UK with really, really graphic pictures of fetuses.

[00:19:29] Likely fake, they don't look very real, but I think we might see a bit more of this sort of aggressiveness and retaliation

[00:19:36] because there's no law to stop them taking a massive blown up kind of damaged fetus.

[00:19:41] And again, it could have, you know, that could have been a stillborn, it could have been a wanted pregnancy, I don't know.

[00:19:45] But they're taking these really disturbing graphic images and going into city centres and displaying them.

[00:19:52] So yeah, we might see a bit more of that.

[00:19:54] Although Keswick Council down south, they're looking at to see if, they're looking at if there's ways that they can ban people from using these really graphic images in public.

[00:20:03] Yeah.

[00:20:03] Again, I wouldn't necessarily want to stop them protesting or doing what they want to do in public, but certain things are just indecent.

[00:20:10] You know, I'm really grateful that brain surgery exists for people who need it.

[00:20:14] I don't need to see pictures of it.

[00:20:15] I'm grateful that heart surgery exists.

[00:20:17] I don't need to see pictures of it and I don't need to have men putting it in my face and tell me that it's wrong.

[00:20:21] You know, so again, there's always people who want to test the boundaries of the law and how indecent they can be and get away with it.

[00:20:28] So I think we might see a bit more of that.

[00:20:31] That's disgusting.

[00:20:32] That's absolutely disgusting.

[00:20:33] I do remember your content.

[00:20:35] You did put a video up of that.

[00:20:37] I thought there's no need.

[00:20:39] There's no need.

[00:20:40] That's just, wow.

[00:20:42] And more than ever, they only want to show you the very late stages.

[00:20:46] And we know that most abortions happen very early because most people, they just want to get it taken care of quickly.

[00:20:51] They've got this abhorrent view of women that women deliberately wait until the like eight months or the day before they're due and go,

[00:20:57] Oh, no, I want to abort just for fun.

[00:20:58] As if anybody does that.

[00:21:00] You know, quite often the late ones have happened because there's terrible circumstances.

[00:21:03] It's maybe been a very young girl who didn't understand what was happening or someone who's been abused.

[00:21:08] Something's got horribly wrong.

[00:21:10] But 90% of abortions are very early.

[00:21:12] And there were pictures in The Guardian last year of what it looked like early.

[00:21:16] And it was like sort of white wispy fluff, even up to 10 weeks.

[00:21:20] There was nothing upsetting or graphic to see at all, but they don't, that's, they don't want people to see that.

[00:21:24] Do you know what's happening in America now?

[00:21:28] The last time we spoke, it was all over the news and obviously it's went very quiet at the moment and how the abortion, right.

[00:21:35] What states was it again that they were taken away?

[00:21:39] Quite a lot of the southern states.

[00:21:41] And Texas brings to mind quite a lot of the southern states had trigger laws where they automatically went back to laws that were formed like in the 1800s, a long time ago.

[00:21:50] And do you know what's been happening there?

[00:21:53] Because women must have to be traveling to different states to get an abortion.

[00:21:57] Because I don't, I haven't seen it on the news.

[00:22:00] I think there's been a lot of sort of state level battles over this.

[00:22:03] I saw a lot of American writer called Jessica Balenti who does a newsletter called Abortion Every Day.

[00:22:08] And she started doing that because there's really, there's news every single day coming out of America.

[00:22:13] And so the last thing that I was, the last bit of news that I was watching was about Georgia.

[00:22:17] So two young black women died because of the abortion bans.

[00:22:21] There was one young woman who she already had a little boy.

[00:22:23] She wanted to go into nursing and she got pregnant.

[00:22:26] It wasn't planned.

[00:22:27] She took the abortion pill very early.

[00:22:29] And as you know, this it's, although it's rare, it can happen even with a miscarriage.

[00:22:33] Sometimes the products don't all come out.

[00:22:35] So she needed more care to remove the products of conception.

[00:22:41] So she was denied care in Georgia because of the abortion ban.

[00:22:44] And so she tried to travel somewhere else, but because of all the delays, she went septic and she died.

[00:22:47] So it was completely unnecessary.

[00:22:50] A little six year old boy orphaned.

[00:22:52] I don't know if the little boys get family or if his dad's around.

[00:22:54] I don't know.

[00:22:55] But if this little boy ends up in the poor system, he's a little black boy.

[00:22:59] He's more vulnerable to inequality.

[00:23:00] He's less likely to be adopted.

[00:23:02] He's, you know, it's just horrific.

[00:23:04] You know, these people that apparently care about children.

[00:23:06] What about that little boy that's been left without his mum?

[00:23:09] And it was completely unnecessary.

[00:23:12] So Georgia had a, they managed to get abortion rights on a ballot.

[00:23:17] And they voted to, I don't know exactly what the law is, but basically they voted to overturn the ban.

[00:23:23] So hopefully that won't happen again in Georgia.

[00:23:25] And I think there's, yeah, there's been other states where when it's, when they've managed to get abortion on the ballot, people have voted in favor of it.

[00:23:31] But obviously there's the US presidential election coming up.

[00:23:35] And I think the Republicans are being really quite sneaky and they're now trying to suggest that, oh, Trump's not for an abortion ban.

[00:23:42] He just wants it to be decided at state level.

[00:23:44] And his wife's written a book where she said that she's pro-choice.

[00:23:47] And I think that's just trying to win back women voters.

[00:23:49] But it's very, very cynical. And it worried me that people would fall for that because Donald Trump can't be trusted.

[00:23:55] Donald Trump cares about Donald Trump and he'll do whatever he has to do to be elected.

[00:23:58] And if being pro-choice got him elected, he'll go for it.

[00:24:00] If being against it gets him elected, he'll go for it.

[00:24:02] But at the end of the day, he can't be trusted.

[00:24:04] The case in Georgia really upset me because everything that had a bad effect on, you know, straight, privileged white women, it hits women of color tenfold.

[00:24:11] So this was someone who was already at risk in America and she ended up dead.

[00:24:14] And I don't, maybe things would have turned out better for her if she'd been a white woman, but either way she died.

[00:24:20] List a little boy.

[00:24:21] What's been happening with the contraception and the discussions are in the House of Lords at the moment?

[00:24:28] Yeah, so there's various things going on just now.

[00:24:31] B-PASS at the moment are campaigning for people to be able to access the emergency pill without having to go through a pharmacist,

[00:24:38] which I think would be a good thing because it's just another barrier that's been put in the way.

[00:24:41] The emergency pill is very, very safe and effective and it's not the same as an abortion.

[00:24:47] It just prevents conception.

[00:24:48] So I don't know why anybody has any kind of problem with it.

[00:24:51] It's that going on just now and that's a positive thing and I hope that'll work out.

[00:24:55] At the moment, there's been some attempts to put some things through the House of Lords that wouldn't be good for abortion rights.

[00:25:02] So there's a Lord Moylan who last year was trying to push through a fetal sentence bill.

[00:25:08] Which, you know, you can imagine where that would be going.

[00:25:11] So there's no need for this medical, you know, registered medical bodies experts say that there's no evidence of fetal sentence before you're allowed to legally have an abortion.

[00:25:20] So you've got to question what is he hoping to achieve with that? Where is that coming from?

[00:25:24] That didn't go anywhere because of the elections that was strapped, but the bill to try and decriminalize abortion was also scrapped with it because of the election.

[00:25:32] So he's making another attempt just now, his bill just now.

[00:25:35] I'm just going to get it up in front of me to make sure that I get it right.

[00:25:39] Yeah, so this Lord Moylan, his bill has had its first reading in the House Lords and it's about complications from abortions.

[00:25:49] And that the government have got to collect information on any complications.

[00:25:53] The complications are rare, but any kind of medical intervention, some people might have some complications.

[00:26:00] And to me, where this looks like it's going is that as they've done in Texas, I think they're going to try and frame it as something that is dangerous and try and really exaggerate any risks involved in abortion, even though it will always be safer than giving birth.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:15] So I feel like that is where he's trying to go with that. It's a tactic that has worked in America.

[00:26:21] So the way it's worked in Texas is that if you have ever had an abortion and then you disclose to your medical practitioner about something like, oh, I don't know, I get migraines or I'm depressed, they will kind of note that and it will go down as a complication, even though it's not related to it at all.

[00:26:36] I'm not saying that's what this bill in Britain would do, but to me, it's very concerning out of all healthcare procedures. Why do focus on that one?

[00:26:44] And I think I find that very strange as well. Yeah, I find that very strange considering all the health issues people have. Yeah. And on the planet, why are they fixating on that? Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:58] I don't understand. I'm like, where did that come from? Because that pill has been available, you know, and you get the more.

[00:27:06] Yeah. So why is it an issue now after 50 years? That doesn't make sense to me.

[00:27:12] Yeah. There's something well underlying here.

[00:27:14] Yeah, exactly. For an old white lord in the House of Lords who does have a preoccupation with abortion, you've got to be suspicious of what he's hoping to achieve with this bill.

[00:27:23] And what they do in America, and here as well in Europe, it's a chipping away strategy. It's like little by little by little trying to chip away at things through bills, amendments.

[00:27:31] And these attempts on abortion rights pop up in Parliament all the time. And they don't usually get anywhere, but it is a game of whack-a-mole with it.

[00:27:39] I don't think it will get anywhere, but I do think it's worth keeping an eye on.

[00:27:42] And as you say, why the focus on pills that have been around for 50 years and are safe?

[00:27:47] If you Google Cydissex from Paracetamol, you read the label. You wouldn't take Paracetamol if you looked at all the things that could possibly go wrong for some people.

[00:27:56] That is quite worrying. And while this is going on, the UK government still haven't opened their petitioning platform.

[00:28:00] So this old white man in the House of Lords can have a go at putting through amendments that are anti-abortion, but me as a member of the public, I can't start a petition for decriminalisation.

[00:28:09] And that's quite annoying.

[00:28:16] And as our issue stops, then another one comes up.

[00:28:20] You're still fighting the good fight for us women.

[00:28:23] You're never going to stop.

[00:28:25] And I do appreciate you for doing that for us.

[00:28:28] Yeah, I think just as a teacher, I feel so responsible to the younger generation.

[00:28:30] I think why should little girls that I'm teaching just now grow up and have to fight fights that were won a long time ago?

[00:28:36] I think our age have got responsibility to the younger generation.

[00:28:39] So I think I'll probably always keep an eye on it and share information.

[00:28:42] What I was like to sort of work on and get behind next is decriminalisation.

[00:28:47] I think that's long overdue.

[00:28:48] I did petition for it in the Scottish Parliament.

[00:28:51] So it wasn't granted a debate or anything like that.

[00:28:54] But the Parliament made a submission to the petition committee saying that they would review abortion and make sure that it was first and foremost a health matter and not a criminal matter.

[00:29:03] So that's good.

[00:29:04] That's on the Scottish Parliament website.

[00:29:05] That can be seen.

[00:29:06] But I haven't seen any progress being made towards this yet.

[00:29:09] They've said before the end of their parliamentary term, which will be 2026.

[00:29:13] So it might come.

[00:29:14] I don't know.

[00:29:15] And I imagine it'll come up again in England because there's a lot of Labour MSPs who are very strongly in favour of decriminalisation.

[00:29:21] So I hope that it will come up again on UK level.

[00:29:25] Just before the petition committee, just before the petition closed, the committee got a submission from the Scottish government that said that before their end of time in government, which will be 2026, that they'll review abortion and that they'll ensure it first and foremost as a health care rather than a criminal matter.

[00:29:42] So that's really positive.

[00:29:43] That's on the Scottish Parliament website.

[00:29:45] The legal situation in Scotland is quite complicated.

[00:29:47] So we don't have the law from the 1800s called the Offensive Against the Person Act.

[00:29:51] But we do have the 1960s Abortion Act, which applies to all countries in the UK.

[00:29:56] So the act which was brought in in the 1960s, it was good legislation at the time.

[00:30:00] It made it legal under certain specific circumstances.

[00:30:03] And it usually is applied quite liberally.

[00:30:07] If the doctor agrees that it would impact your mental health, they would be allowed to sign it off on those grounds.

[00:30:12] But what it does mean is that if someone, for whatever reason, and there's all kinds of reasons why people might not be able to or might not depend on where they live or what's going on at home.

[00:30:21] They might do things like get their own pills online.

[00:30:24] Obviously, it's better if people go through the health care system.

[00:30:27] But even that, even buying your own pills online could send you to prison for the rest of your life.

[00:30:31] And there are some women in England who have been prosecuted and one was jailed for a while for getting their own abortion pills.

[00:30:37] So that's, it's not in the public interest.

[00:30:39] It's not going to stop desperate people doing desperate things.

[00:30:43] So I think there's a really strong case for decriminalising abortion.

[00:30:46] You know, so that if it's been, I don't know, a young girl that's bought pills online or whatever has happened, that they shouldn't be going to prison for it.

[00:30:51] No, they shouldn't. No.

[00:30:53] Yeah, it's not in any public interest.

[00:30:54] One woman that was jailed, she did get released again, but she was already a mum and she had a child who had additional support needs and disability.

[00:31:01] There's no need for that.

[00:31:03] I think that's to prove a point.

[00:31:04] Your rights can be taken away.

[00:31:06] You don't own you.

[00:31:08] You follow this.

[00:31:10] You don't own.

[00:31:10] Yeah, that's the impression and the feeling I'm getting.

[00:31:13] I mean, who does that?

[00:31:15] I know.

[00:31:15] Who does that?

[00:31:16] Exactly.

[00:31:17] And again, why should it be different from anything else?

[00:31:19] I used to be a dental nurse and it's not a good idea to try and do your own dental treatment.

[00:31:23] It's better to go to a dentist.

[00:31:25] Yes.

[00:31:25] Putting anybody in jail for that.

[00:31:27] No.

[00:31:28] Especially when they felt they couldn't go to the dentist or whatever and they took things into their own hands.

[00:31:32] You'd think that's a shame that happened, but you would not put them in jail for it.

[00:31:35] I hope that decriminalisation will come in England and I think there's a good chance that coming up again, because quite a lot of Labour MPs are strongly in favour of it.

[00:31:42] Although I have been told that Keir Starmer isn't a fan of it.

[00:31:44] I don't know.

[00:31:45] So I think that's worth keeping an eye on and worth pushing for.

[00:31:47] The Scottish legal system is very, very dated.

[00:31:51] It's very dated.

[00:31:53] We're evolving as human beings.

[00:31:55] We're evolving as generation.

[00:31:56] We can't be having laws that are from the 1800s or even the 1960s.

[00:32:03] And that was good progress at the time, but times have changed.

[00:32:05] They're better.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] And there's been disagreement among legal experts.

[00:32:10] There's someone who said that it's not criminalised in Scotland, but there's another professor from the same university who said,

[00:32:14] well, actually, it is criminalised in Scotland.

[00:32:17] But either way, I think with the climate in the world and the rollback on women's rights and the emboldenment of the religious right,

[00:32:24] why leave it to chance?

[00:32:25] Why not make, why not improve the law and why not keep us safe?

[00:32:28] I think that makes a lot of sense.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] Women don't have to die.

[00:32:33] Women don't have to die.

[00:32:35] Even if the law is applied liberally and most people can access abortion,

[00:32:38] we've just seen women being sent to prison and that's not acceptable.

[00:32:41] It's 2024.

[00:32:42] That's disgusting.

[00:32:43] It really is disgusting.

[00:32:47] And it's the fact that the police had to go and go, no, I would arrest the law.

[00:32:53] Yeah.

[00:32:53] Well, there was another terrible case in England.

[00:32:55] There was a woman who found out she was pregnant, she didn't want to be.

[00:32:58] She looked into having an abortion and then she found out she was past the legal limit.

[00:33:01] So she just got her head around it like, this is where I am.

[00:33:04] I just need to cope with it.

[00:33:06] And then she had a stillborn and she was upset and she was trying to divide the child.

[00:33:11] And the police, instead of helping her, arrested her.

[00:33:13] And I just think it's tragic.

[00:33:17] You know, she didn't want to be pregnant and then she thought, well, okay, this is where I am.

[00:33:21] Good old choice.

[00:33:21] Scott continues.

[00:33:22] She was really upset when it went horribly wrong.

[00:33:24] And instead of helping her, they arrested her.

[00:33:27] Oh, that's, that is absolutely sick.

[00:33:30] Yeah.

[00:33:30] And she was really traumatised because obviously she wanted this tiny little premature child to survive.

[00:33:36] Once that had happened, she really wanted him to live.

[00:33:37] And yeah, she was punished.

[00:33:39] Thank you so much, Gemma, for coming back on to Scotland's Women's Podcast.

[00:33:45] Thank you for what you do and the awareness.

[00:33:49] Can't thank you enough.

[00:33:50] And without you, I wouldn't know what's going on in my own country.

[00:33:55] And I thank you.

[00:33:56] And I am grateful for the buffer zones to finally be put in.

[00:34:00] But it took a long time.

[00:34:01] And I thank you so much for coming on and speaking your mind and always speaking your mind.

[00:34:06] And keep fighting the good fight.

[00:34:08] Honestly, thank you so much.

[00:34:11] Thanks for having me on.

[00:34:12] I think the reason why people don't hear these things is it's just the other women's issue

[00:34:15] and it's not given the same importance in the national media.

[00:34:18] And I'm so sorry, I wouldn't get that out there.

[00:34:20] Thank you.

[00:34:20] Good to talk to you again.

[00:34:21] Take care.

[00:34:22] Bye.

[00:34:29] In 1869 to study medicine at the university.

[00:34:33] At that particular time in Britain, there was no place for women to study medicine.

[00:34:39] It was an experiment on behalf of the university which went explosively wrong

[00:34:46] and ended up in all sorts of illegal complications, violent attacks on the women.

[00:34:54] A lot of times now women are finding stories and characters in history that should have actually been pivotal in our learning of history and were literally ignored.

[00:35:10] So I felt quickly I was onto one of those stories.

[00:35:14] I think as a writer, you constantly look at things and think, is this a story?

[00:35:18] Thank you for listening to Scotland's Women.

[00:35:21] We would love to hear from you, so please visit the website at scotlandswomen.com as every Scotland's woman has a story to tell.

[00:35:30] And please subscribe on wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:35:34] Scotland's Women, our lives, our stories.